Why is the winchester 9422 so expensive

It is time to sell most of them. Winchester 9422, 22lr. Description: Winchester 9422. Uncheckered. 20"barrel. Has a Bushnell 3x-7x Custom 22 Scope which is good. Also has a hammer spur. There are light scratches on the LH side of the receiver. Some small dings in the wood- worst on LH side of stock.

Why is the winchester 9422 so expensive. The 12 month average price is $1,832.03 new and $1,077.34 used. The new value of a WINCHESTER 9422 rifle has risen $102.66 dollars over the past 12 months to a price of $1,832.03 . The used value of a WINCHESTER 9422 rifle has fallen ($54.34) dollars over the past 12 months to a price of $1,091.00 . The demand of new WINCHESTER 9422 rifle's has ...

377 posts · Joined 2008. #1 · Dec 18, 2008. I recently acquired a Winchester 9422 Yellow-boy. In 25 years as a dealer I had never seen one before this. I'm no longer a dealer, retired. I can't find any info on this like year s of manufacture or production numbers. I know Winchester often made special runs for groups or distributors.

Get ratings and reviews for the top 11 gutter guard companies in Winchester, KY. Helping you find the best gutter guard companies for the job. Expert Advice On Improving Your Home ...But a common query that often surfaces is, why is the Winchester 9422 so expensive? Let’s take a closer look to unravel this mystery. Unpacking the Price Tag of …The Winchester 101 model is a shotgun that began manufacture in 1959. The gun originally was issued as a 12 gauge in 1959. Serial numbers for this model range from 50,000 to more t...As the story goes, Parson was giving a demonstration with a Model 70 chambered in .270 Winchester to a crowd of about 5,000 at a fairground when a crow landed about 1,500 yards away. “He raised the .270 and fired, and smoked the crow at 1,500 yards,” Weber said. The pre- 1964 Model 70 Winchester remains one of the most …The Winchester 9422 has single screw disassembly. Very much a different thing. When you take down a Marlin, all parts remain firmly attached to the rifle. Take down a Winchester 9422 and the breechblock, breechblock carrier and camming pin come tumbling out of the rifle. The nastiest is that little camming pin which will roll under a …

Gun: Winchester Model 1876 Sporting Rifle, Second Model. Caliber: .45-60 Win. Serial No.: 12,XXX. Condition: NRA Fine/Excellent (Antique Gun Condition Standards) Manufactured: 1880. Value: $8,500 ...The new value of a WINCHESTER 9422 rifle has risen $160.17 dollars over the past 12 months to a price of $1,832.03 . The used value of a WINCHESTER 9422 rifle has fallen ($54.34) dollars over the past 12 months to a price of $1,091.00 . The demand of new WINCHESTER 9422 rifle's has fallen 5 units over the past 12 months.The Winchester 9422 XTR is a very utilitarian rifle, being that it is chambered in .22 Short, Long and Long Rifle and having a 20 and a half inch barrel. The rifles have several boy scout motifs of camping, chopping wood and the scout hand sign. Around the borders are the scout motto, oath, slogan and law.OKShotgunner. 1741 posts · Joined 2004. #4 · Jul 8, 2005. I haven't seen a shortage of Win. 209 primers. I use them quite a bit because they are a little less expensive around this part of the country than Remington 209 primers. My cost for Win. 209 primers is $95/5,000 and Remingto 209 primers cost me $102.50/5,000.Overall, the Winchester 9422 is a rare, highly sought-after, and expensive gun. If you are looking to purchase a Winchester 9422, be prepared to pay a premium price. Why is the Winchester 9422 so expensive? The Winchester 9422 is a lever-action rifle that was manufactured by the Winchester Repeating Arms Company from 1972 to 2006.All 99% to mint. Top to bottom: 1st and 2nd year Winchester 9422 S/L/LR non-checkered carbines; early non-checkered 9422M .22 magnum with Williams receiver sight; early 9422M XTR .22 magnum without checkering; 9422 XTR .22 l/lr with checkering; 9422M .22 magnum case colored Trapper; 9422 L/LR Trapper. The boat says that at …Many private foundations offer grants to cover living expenses while you work on a project or go to school. Some public grants from government institutions are also available for t...

Jun 4, 2017 · The Model 9422 used only a traditional half-cock safety, making it appeal all the more to traditionalists. Winchester spared no expense in making the rifle as perfect as possible. The best materials were used; a milled forged steel frame and internal parts and a walnut stock were standard. The Winchester 9422 is a family of rifles capable of cycling 22 Short, 22 Long, and 22LR. A 20” inch blued steel barrel is adorned with open sights while a dovetail groove allows for easy scope ...When one gun maker raises prices the others do the same. They don't feel any need to reduce prices because gun owners fear cheap guns. So whenever guns go up in price, they become popular. This is happening only to some types of guns. The real question is why we aren't buying bolt actions and PCCs while prices are so reasonable.Discussion and questions concerning Winchester Model 9422 lever actions. ... so i'm in the market for a Winchester 9422. Carl_Spackler; Jul 21, 2012; 24

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Lever guns in 30-30 are still the least expensive. Try pricing one in any pistol caliber, 35 Rem, 444, or 45-70. Even worse are the ones in 348, 375Win, 32 Special, or any of the less common rounds. I don't get it either. I've always had a lever gun in 30-30, (still have 2) as well as several other cartridges.Jan 18, 2013 · 6886 posts · Joined 2008. #4 · Jan 20, 2013. Kix, at one time I mounted a vintage Redfield Rimfire on mine. 3'4" tube and factory mounts. The Baby Redfields look real nice on the M9422. 4X with duplex reticule. Lots of them on Ebay for around $200. Another real nice scope is the VX1 Rimfire Leupold 2X7 variable. The Marlin is not quite as classic looking, but it has a heavy target barrel, a wider forend, is a true take-down model and has that microgrove. Both have that pistol grip and nice lumber. The Win. has rimfire scope grooves while the Marlin is drilled and tapped. P.S. Keep one and get the other is not an option.The new value of a WINCHESTER 9422 rifle has risen $160.17 dollars over the past 12 months to a price of $1,832.03 . The used value of a WINCHESTER 9422 rifle has fallen ($54.34) dollars over the past 12 months to a price of $1,091.00 . The demand of new WINCHESTER 9422 rifle's has fallen 5 units over the past 12 months.

Winchester 9422 trigger adjustment. Jump to Latest Follow 5K views 7 replies 6 participants last post by p15camborne Mar 8, 2008. T. TikkaT3 Discussion starter 6 posts · Joined 2008 Add to quote; Only show this user #1 · Feb 28, 2008. Hi Everyone, I have just bought a Winchester 9422 magnum and have only had a chance to put 5 …Apr 29, 2015 · Description: This 9422 Special Edition Traditional Tribute is in excellent condtion. While Winchester's production target was 9422 pieces, they fell short when their New Haven, CT factory closed in early 2006. 22 Win. S/L/LR, 20" round barrel with a bright excellent bore. The metal surfaces retain 99% original blue, right side of the receiver ... Winchester, Model 9422, 22 S L LR, Lever-Action made in 1973. Called by some “The best rifle Winchester has made since 1964,” the rimfire Model 9422 lever action was made from 1972 to 2004 ...There are several ways to find out more information about your Winchester rifle or shotgun. All Winchester firearms, including commemoratives, are collectible. Read on to find out ...Marlins’ inner tubes have always been brass, at least since the ‘50s. The Winchester’s outer tube seems to be thicker than the Marlin’s, giving the Winchester points for stoutness at that end. I once had a problem of the outer tube on my 39 Octagon separating from the receiver and hanging up cartridges.222 posts · Joined 2016. #1 · Jan 31, 2019. Recently I acquired a Winchester 9422M and I purchased Skinner peep sights for it. The sights arrived and I was ready to install. When I tried to slide the sight on the dovetail it did not want to go on. Just for grins I tried putting it on backwards because the sight seemed a bit wider on the rear ...Seller Description For This Firearm. This Winchester 9422 XTR is a lever-action rimfire rifle built on one of Winchester’s most popular rifle actions. Well-built and accurate, the 9422 is ...If there were only 500 produced, then these are a fairly rare variation of the 9422. These CDNN "TEX" case-colored 9422's were produced in 500 units EACH of 4 styles, "1TEXxxx" being the 20" 22LR, "2TEXxxx" the 20" 22Mag, "3TEXxxx" the Trapper 22lr, and finally "4TEXxxx" the Trapper 22Mag. There were also case-colored 9422's produced for ...

To help you further understand the value of a WINCHESTER MODEL 9422 25TH ANNIVERSARY HIGH GRADE, we provide a breakdown based on the firearm's condition: 100% (New, unfired): 1175 Login / Register to view pricing. 98% (Like new, minor wear): 995 Login / Register to view pricing. 95% (Minimal wear, well-maintained): 850 Login / Register to view ...

The Winchester 9422 XTR Boy Scouts of America Commemorative rifle honors the rich history of the Boy Scouts. This limited production rifle will make a great collector piece and shooter. The ... For your consideration, a Winchester model 9422 chambered in .22 Short, Long, and Long Rifle. This piece is a commemorative celebrating the 1997 25th anniversary of the 9422 design. As such, it features nicely figured furniture and roll-engraved imagery of a father and son shooting at left and Winchester's iconic horse and rider logo at right. The Winchester 101 model is a shotgun that began manufacture in 1959. The gun originally was issued as a 12 gauge in 1959. Serial numbers for this model range from 50,000 to more t...The Model 9422 is another rifle in an over 130 year-old tradition of producing quality firearms for the World’s sportsmen. Quality of manufacture, design, craftsmanship and function are of utmost concern to us. We believe you’ll find that your new 9422 meets the Winchester tradition of quality in every way.Apr 20, 2009 · Remember that when the 9422 was first released in ~1972, Winchester had a serious black eye because of rimfires such as the 190/290, etc. Those guns were pieces of crap (no offense intended) and the 9422 restored the workmanship and quality that Winchester had been known for in their pre-64 rimfires. stewbud. Jan 11, 2015 · 46 posts · Joined 2012. #1 · Jan 11, 2015. I have a 9422 mainly this rifle shoots CLAS Rimfire events, i was previously using a Marlin 39A but i had modified for a different event so brought in the 9422. this little rifle is amazing, half the weight and shorter barrel still only using origonal sights and is very competitive. 8905 posts · Joined 2006. #9 · Nov 6, 2008. Gizzy, Both the 61 and the similarly-designed 9422 have controlled round feed in that there are two extractors on the bolt, an upper and a lower, one always holding on to the shell until it's ejected. Sounds like your lower had a weak spring or non-fitted extractor. 22 A.G.S.Aug 9, 2021. #1. So remarkably I have dound a like-new Winchester 9422 here in Finland of all places. I had heard about them before and im just wondering if anyone else had one …Aug 26, 2019 · The Winchester 9422. I'm pleased to see a resurgence of threads on the model 9422. I have a real love for rimfire lever guns and have to say that the 9422 is easily my favorite. The Marlin 39 series is a fine rifle, and in some respects possibly better than the 9422, but overall I will pick up the Winchester over the Marlin almost every time. Apr 28, 2022 · Discussion and questions concerning Winchester Model 9422 lever actions. ... so i'm in the market for a Winchester 9422. Carl_Spackler; Jul 21, 2012; 24

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The manufacture date of a Winchester Model 94 (.30-30) can be determined by finding and decoding the serial number. The year of manufacture is indicated by the first two digits of the serial number, which can typically be found on the tang or bottom of the receiver. 1.The Winchester Mystery House is an odd labyrinth filled with doors and stairs that go nowhere. Learn if the Winchester Mystery House is haunted. Advertisement Most of us want to ge...Check for tightness of fit by sliding a cartridge up the bolt face beneath the extractor to see if it fits snugly as it should. Any excess looseness can cause ejection and extraction problems. And of course, I assume you have checked for excess powder residue around the front of the chamber where the bolt seats.Winchester 9422 and Marlin 39A & M can be quickly taken down for cleaning and lubrication while the Browning is much more complicated to do so. However some BL22 owners will use them for years without the need to disassemble them. So, the 9422 is number one for me and I'm still scratching my head and trying to decide who …One of the problems is, there are numerous refinished original stocks and forearms that were never installed and were sold when the factory closed. Many guns released as plain-jane are being dressed up as more expensive models. There is no way to know how a 9422 was released. This happens across the model range but I know of a 9422 builder in CT.22K subscribers in the LeverGuns community. A subreddit for those that love Levers, and things that go bang, together. A place to enjoy Levers…Generally, a qualified higher education expense is tuition or a tuition-related expense paid to a post-secondary institution. Generally, a qualified higher education expense is tui...The Winchester 9422 XTR Boy Scouts of America Commemorative rifle honors the rich history of the Boy Scouts. This limited production rifle will make a great collector piece and shooter. The ...46 posts · Joined 2012. #1 · Jan 11, 2015. I have a 9422 mainly this rifle shoots CLAS Rimfire events, i was previously using a Marlin 39A but i had modified for a different event so brought in the 9422. this little rifle is amazing, half the weight and shorter barrel still only using origonal sights and is very competitive.5238 posts · Joined 2005. #3 · Jun 11, 2013. AFAIK, that's only true for CF Model 94 receivers - Model 9422's have always been produced from drop-forged steel. I've yet to run across a flaking blue on a 9422, in looking at 100-odd rifles over the past 35 years - so maybe yours was chemically damaged by some solution.Taking all these design features into account, I’d say the 9422 was an extremely expensive rifle to manufacture, probably more so than even a Model 94. This …a.) They aren't making the 9422 anymore and only had about a 30 year or so run. They are becoming collectibles and pretty rapidly so; maybe in part because of the signs on the horizon of our "gun culture" beginning to disappear. b.) The Marlin 39a is sometimes touted as one of the (maybe "the") longest-running production guns in history. ….

Winchester 9422 Bill Bryant, You maybe correct.....! ! All my rifles pre-date the change-over, so I can only go by my memory of what I have seen, or thought I saw, at gun shows on the 'newer' Winchesters....! ! The first line of the "roll mark" should say "Winchester Model 9422", and the second line should say "US Repeating Arms …These days, Winchester 9422 rifles bring a premium on the used-gun market. Even though they’ve been discontinued only for a little over 16 years, they’ve generated a burgeoning interest among collectors.Posted February 9. The Winchester 9422. Great rifle no matter how you slice it. But, what would you "consider" it to be". The name of course, 9422 implies that it's a .22 version of the Model 94, but we all know that's not true. Others point out that while it's not one of them either, it is in some ways more similar to the Model 92 than the 94.Marlins’ inner tubes have always been brass, at least since the ‘50s. The Winchester’s outer tube seems to be thicker than the Marlin’s, giving the Winchester points for stoutness at that end. I once had a problem of the outer tube on my 39 Octagon separating from the receiver and hanging up cartridges.Firing recoil or lever movement causes a cartridge to enter under the lifter and jam. You need to remove the lever to clear it. Two primary causes of this problem. 1. the magazine tube attachment screw (threaded into underside of barrel near muzzle) loosens and allows movement of the mag tube.22K subscribers in the LeverGuns community. A subreddit for those that love Levers, and things that go bang, together. A place to enjoy Levers…Both rifles are grooved for scope mounting though I don't think a scope looks right on a traditional lever action rifle. Both also have very smooth actions and walnut stocks. The Winchester is about a grand for a used one in nice condition and the Henry can be had new for a little over $300.00. The Winchester has been working flawlessly for ...To help you further understand the value of a WINCHESTER MODEL 9422 HIGH-GRADE, we provide a breakdown based on the firearm's condition: 100% (New, unfired): 415 Login / Register to view pricing. 98% (Like new, minor wear): 340 Login / Register to view pricing. 95% (Minimal wear, well-maintained): 265 Login / Register to view pricing.Unfortunately I am still on the hunt for the expensive and elusive 1894m. As far as collect-ability I would give the nod to the Marlin, I dont remember the number but they didn't make a lot of them. The 9422 they made a boat load of them, The marlin will cost you two to four hundred more than the 9422m. Winchester made the 9422 Classic for only ... Why is the winchester 9422 so expensive, The 9422 was designed as an all out effort to produce high quality lever action .22 WMR and .22 LR rifles to address the hit the Winchester reputation took with its cost cutting measures in 1964. And if not an apology for the less than stellar Model 190 and 290 rimfire designs, at least an effort to prove they could still make a high quality ..., The serial number for the Winchester Model 70 is located on the receiver, usually on the right side, near the magazine well and the bolt handle. The Model 70 series features a seri..., The Marlin 336 RC is a lever-action rifle normally chambered in either .30-30 Winchester or .35 Remington. The RC sub-model is noted for its 20-inch barrel. Introduced in 1948, the..., SKU: BTMTD-9422 - 1. Ring: Required. Description. This is a take down screw and saddle ring for the Winchester Model 9422. It fits the .22, .22 magnum and .17 HMR. It replaces the factory take down screw which requires a screwdriver or coin to remove. This piece adds the functionality of a saddle ring and allows you to take apart your rifle ..., 222 posts · Joined 2016. #1 · Jan 31, 2019. Recently I acquired a Winchester 9422M and I purchased Skinner peep sights for it. The sights arrived and I was ready to install. When I tried to slide the sight on the dovetail it did not want to go on. Just for grins I tried putting it on backwards because the sight seemed a bit wider on the rear ..., The run-of-the-mill oval tang receivers (comprising most of pre-64 M70 production) look like this (.300 WIN MAGNUM Westerner-Alaskan S/N 578367): The D&T oval tang H&H actions look like this (.375 H&H MAGNUM Standard Rifle S/N 335307):, One of the problems is, there are numerous refinished original stocks and forearms that were never installed and were sold when the factory closed. Many guns released as plain-jane are being dressed up as more expensive models. There is no way to know how a 9422 was released. This happens across the model range but I know of a 9422 builder in CT., 46 posts · Joined 2012. #1 · Jan 11, 2015. I have a 9422 mainly this rifle shoots CLAS Rimfire events, i was previously using a Marlin 39A but i had modified for a different event so brought in the 9422. this little rifle is amazing, half the weight and shorter barrel still only using origonal sights and is very competitive., Marlins’ inner tubes have always been brass, at least since the ‘50s. The Winchester’s outer tube seems to be thicker than the Marlin’s, giving the Winchester points for stoutness at that end. I once had a problem of the outer tube on my 39 Octagon separating from the receiver and hanging up cartridges., Interesting ,tionesta1.Seems you can call Winchester and they will look up the serial number.It begs to offer the question of why, they do not just list the information some where,so all could look at it.Seems to me ,that would cut down on a lot of telephone calls and the use of company time spent looking up serial numbers. , Winchester 9422M Rescue and Restoration. There was nothing on Ebay, but Gunbroker just happened to have a "new old stock" set that I got for $110. So the whole project came in at $610 (with shipping), which is much less than 9422s in comparable condition are selling for right at the moment. Here are some shots of both the 1972 …, Sep 7, 2023 · But a common query that often surfaces is, why is the Winchester 9422 so expensive? Let’s take a closer look to unravel this mystery. Unpacking the Price Tag of the Winchester 9422. 1. Historical Significance: Introduced in the early 1970s, the Winchester 9422 was an attempt to revitalize the lever-action rifle market. Its lineage and ... , The Henry lists for $230 and the Winchester for $407, so we have to assess what you get for the additional $177. With the Winchester, you get all-steel construction, including the beautifully machined and finished action, a 1.75-inch-longer barrel, checkered walnut, slight additional weight, a bit more accuracy, and a slightly better sight picture., Winchester ~ 9422 ~ .22 S-L-LR. Description: Made in 1992 at the New Haven Plant in Connecticut U.S.A. .22 Short/Long/Long Rifle. SOLD. Chambers: ".22 Short, Long and Long Rifle Rimfire. Metal Condition: "Very good, shows slight edge wear at the lever and a few minor scratches on the receiver. Wood Condition: "Good, with the exception of a few ..., Feb 21, 2020 · W.A.C.A. life member, Marlin Collectors Assn. charter and life member, C,S.S.A. member and general gun nut. I’ve seen three Customs sell at auction last year. They sold for $3,700, $5000, and $5200. I’d throw out the $3,700 and say that the current market value is $5100. , To help you further understand the value of a WINCHESTER MODEL 9422 25TH ANNIVERSARY HIGH GRADE, we provide a breakdown based on the firearm's condition: 100% (New, unfired): 1175 Login / Register to view pricing. 98% (Like new, minor wear): 995 Login / Register to view pricing. 95% (Minimal wear, well-maintained): 850 Login / …, 8905 posts · Joined 2006. #9 · Nov 6, 2008. Gizzy, Both the 61 and the similarly-designed 9422 have controlled round feed in that there are two extractors on the bolt, an upper and a lower, one always holding on to the shell until it's ejected. Sounds like your lower had a weak spring or non-fitted extractor. 22 A.G.S., Get ratings and reviews for the top 11 gutter guard companies in Winchester, KY. Helping you find the best gutter guard companies for the job. Expert Advice On Improving Your Home ..., To help you further understand the value of a WINCHESTER MODEL 9422 25TH ANNIVERSARY HIGH GRADE, we provide a breakdown based on the firearm's condition: 100% (New, unfired): 1175 Login / Register to view pricing. 98% (Like new, minor wear): 995 Login / Register to view pricing. 95% (Minimal wear, well-maintained): 850 Login / Register to view ..., 485 posts · Joined 2008. #1 · Mar 15, 2022. The 9422 series is a very high quality rifle worthy of the Winchester name. Since they have been discontinued it seems as their popularity has risen as has the demand. With many versions and 3 calibers what is your favorite 9422?, Alcohol prices are highly dependent on government policy. Bahrain is an expensive place to drink. According to the World Bank’s recently released purchasing power parity data, alco..., On Winchester 9422 a front sight of .450 is required. Can be fitted on most of the dovetails on the receivers of 22 rifles. Because of low line sights, higher front sights may be required So I would guess that you would need to replace the front sight, it is up to you if you want to remove the rear sight and replace it with a filler block. Sparks, The Winchester 9422 XTR is a very utilitarian rifle, being that it is chambered in .22 Short, Long and Long Rifle and having a 20 and a half inch barrel. The rifles have several boy scout motifs of camping, chopping wood and the scout hand sign. Around the borders are the scout motto, oath, slogan and law., The .22 LR caliber offers versatility, ideal for target shooting or small game hunting. Crafted with attention to detail, the Winchester Model 9422 XTR guarantees accuracy, durability, and a truly ..., The Winchester was a better made gun and more expensive to produce. Used 9422s are selling for more than a new Golden Boy and even more than a new Marlin 39A. Nothing against the Henry, but its painted, alloy receiver can't match up against the 9422's steel, blued receiver in terms of quality, nor are the other parts up to the quality of a 9422., Marlins’ inner tubes have always been brass, at least since the ‘50s. The Winchester’s outer tube seems to be thicker than the Marlin’s, giving the Winchester points for stoutness at that end. I once had a problem of the outer tube on my 39 Octagon separating from the receiver and hanging up cartridges., Why is the Winchester 9422 so expensive? The cartridge was under total control from magazine to chamber. The 61 became too expensive to produce by the old methods, and was dropped from the line in 1964. However, with the introduction of modern CNC machinery, Winchester could make the 9422 more economically and still maintain high quality., 272 posts · Joined 2020. #11 · Aug 6, 2023. I have three Winchester 9422's . None of them are marked XTR. They were all purchased new in the 70's. Two are 22LR and one is 22 magnum. The two 22LR's are not checkered. The 22 magnum is checkered and marked 9422M., Please note that variations in caliber, barrel length, generations, and sub-models may affect the item's price, so make sure your search is specific enough to obtain the correct value. ... WINCHESTER MODEL 9422 HIGH GRADE TRADITIONAL TRIBUTE Description .22 LR or .22 WMR cal., 20 1/2 in. round barrel, features silver banner with Model 9422 ..., Sep 7, 2023 · But a common query that often surfaces is, why is the Winchester 9422 so expensive? Let’s take a closer look to unravel this mystery. Unpacking the Price Tag of the Winchester 9422. 1. Historical Significance: Introduced in the early 1970s, the Winchester 9422 was an attempt to revitalize the lever-action rifle market. Its lineage and ... , The 12 month average price is $1,832.03 new and $1,077.34 used. The new value of a WINCHESTER 9422 rifle has risen $102.66 dollars over the past 12 months to a price of …, Unfortunately I am still on the hunt for the expensive and elusive 1894m. As far as collect-ability I would give the nod to the Marlin, I dont remember the number but they didn't make a lot of them. The 9422 they made a boat load of them, The marlin will cost you two to four hundred more than the 9422m. Winchester made the 9422 Classic for only ..., Model 9422 or Model 9417 into two halves. A single screw on the left side of the receiver is all it takes. It makes it easy to clean and oil your rifle, plus it allows cleaning of the muzzle from the breech end, protecting the crown of the barrel so you don’t risk affecting accuracy. The authentic look of the Model 9422 and Model 9417 isn’t ...